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ORTHODOX  January 2002, Week 4

ORTHODOX January 2002, Week 4

Subject:

More on Assisi (was Jerusalem Patriarchate)

From:

Christopher Little <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Orthodox Christianity <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:07:09 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (106 lines)

I had been debating whether or not to answer Fr. George's last post on the
Jerusalem Patriarchate dated 1/27, as it seemed we had pretty much
exhausted the issue, and were merely reiterating why we each felt the way
we did.  In light of the recent silliness at Assisi, however, I decided I
would respond to Fr. George.  Before I do, however, I'd like to canvass the
clergy and hierarchy who regularly post here about their thoughts
concerning Assisi.  Most of them have been very quiet, and perhaps that is
intentional.  Nevertheless, if any priest or bishop does would like to go
public, I'd welcome that.  Or, if not, I'd welcome a private response.  I
find it all very troubling.  A friend of mine who has been intending to
convert to Orthodoxy is having second thoughts, now, after observing the EP
and delegates of the MP share the stage with a "voodoo chile".  I sent a
respectfully worded e-mail to the MP, but I doubt I'll get a response,
which is why I am requesting responses from those clergy and hierarchy who
are a bit more local.

And now, my responses to and questions for Fr. George

On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:07:50 -0500, [log in to unmask] wrote:

>A few late night comments in reply to Mr. Little:
>When is enough enough?  I do not know, but if you look at the list of sins
>that were endemic to the NT church of Corinth, or some of the churches
>mentioned in Revelation, it isn't nearly as soon as many people would urge.

Agreed.  But would you say there *does* come a point when separation can be
justified?  If the answer is no, then it would seem to me you have an issue
with some basic principles of Orthodox ecclesiology.  If the answer is yes,
then I'd really like to know what your criteria are.  Forgive me for trying
to force the issue.  I know it may be a bit delicate for you in light of
the Ben Lomand controversy.  But tell me, please, what you can.

>I deliberately omitted replying about the episcopals because I do not think
>I have enough information or insight.

Essentially, a number conservative Episcopalians, after fighting hard and
suffering long (and now even experiencing some persecution at the hands of
liberal hierarchs), have separated from the PECUSA. The drift toward
liberal theology was the main thing, but the straw that broke the camel's
back was the PECUSA's brazen departure for biblical norms on human
sexuality, as clearly made manifest at the last General Assembly meeting
here in Denver a year or so ago.  Two traditionalist archbishops were
summoned from Africa and Indonesia, who then consecrated several priests as
bishops, forming the Anglican Mission in America.  Basically, the
conservatives just couldn't take any more.  Do you think the "schism" was
justifiable?  Assuming you can't answer without more information, then let
me ask you if you think, theoretically, a schism is *ever* justified.

>OK, you think you prefer balkanizing if it guarantees a defense against
>creeping liberalism.  Since when does division ever do that?  It guarantees
>smaller, more homogenous communities of like-minded folks.  It guarantees
>lots of anger, bitterness, pride, self-justification, gossip, and hatred.
>If you check the book of Galatians, I believe, you see that the causes and
>results of splits such as the above fit almost hand-in-glove the list of
>the works of the flesh, not the fruits of the Spirit.  ROCOR, or many
>within it, seemed to think that their separation guaranteed something.  Now
>we see that a determined fraction has decided that it guaranteed nothing
>and that GOD HIMSELF had called them to separate still farther.

Division MAY certainly result in the kinds of sinful behavior you describe,
and as you state below, such is condemned in Holy Scripture.  But is
division *always* a negative thing?  Excommunication, whether it takes the
form of pastoral discipline OR the form of ecclesial separation, is
intended to send a message which has as its aim restoration and
reunification.  It is at once "tough love" expressed toward the other AND
the statment of the excommunicating party's principles.  There are many in
ROCOR, for example, who aren't "Puritanical separationists" and who
accordingly would like to reunite with the MP but NOT without resolving the
important issues that have separated them.  When one says (though I'm not
sure you're saying this, Father) that in no case is ecclesial separation
*ever* justified, that, to me, in tantamount to saying that there are
no "important issues" save the issue of unity.  I don't think that is
biblically warranted, and I'm quite sure it's not warranted by Orthodox
ecclesiology, either.  Orthodox Christians in the past have been quite
willing to sacrifice ecclesial unity for truth.

>Look at
>the Protestants who have done that: splits upon schisms upon separations,
>and the devil, so far as I can tell, has never found a one that proved
>bulletproof.  I think an excellent argument can be made that all the "bad
>vibes" generated by splits leave BOTH groups more vulnerable to sin, abeit
>of different kinds.

Well, Protestantism certainly has always had its own particular kind of
ecclesiological pathologies that Orthodoxy by its very nature does not
share, but as far as Protestantism goes, the principle that one must split
away from apostasizing bodies in order to retain "orthodoxy" doesn't seem
too terribly dissimilar to the advice of St. Mark of Ephesus or what is set
forth in Canon XV of 1st-2nd Constantinople.  If you disagree, could you be
so kind as to explain why?

>Is the JP such a threat?  I don't know, but there are signs for concern.

Just as the JP would say there are signs for concern on the other side.
Signs such as Assisi.

Regards,

Chris

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December 1996, Week 5
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January 1996, Week 1
December 1995, Week 5
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February 1995, Week 1
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December 1994, Week 5
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April 1994, Week 1
March 1994, Week 5
March 1994, Week 4
March 1994, Week 3
March 1994, Week 2
March 1994, Week 1
February 1994, Week 4
February 1994, Week 3
February 1994, Week 2
February 1994, Week 1
January 1994, Week 5
January 1994, Week 4
January 1994, Week 3
January 1994
December 1993

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