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ORTHODOX  April 1996, Week 3

ORTHODOX April 1996, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Old Riters in US

From:

"Alexey M. Chumakov" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Orthodox Christianity <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:48:02 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (194 lines)

From: Vladimir Chestnov <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Old Riters in US
>Dear-in-Christ Alexey,     !!!  Xpuctoc Bockpece  !!!
 
Truly He is risen!
 
>>there was no name at the end of the letter that you forwarded -
>???? Hmm, the original post had the signature:
 
Please forgive my mistake - the post that I received looked like it was
forwarded by you from someone (at serg@......su).
 
>not all Old Riters are the same. One probably can get into communion with the
>non-schismatic "one faith holders", though I do not advice that to any recent
>catechumen, but one must stay out of the schismatics "Old Believers" for the
>price of his soul.
 
Indeed. Actually, if I remember right, "edinoverie" was a "one-way-street"
in Russia, with prohibition of those following the "Nikonian" rite to
go over to the Old Rite.
However, schismatic Old Belivers are certainly not a noticeable or
particularly popular group of faithful. Why this is so, I do not know.
 
>>But: hardly there is a doubt that they are basically very pious people, even
>as sadly in schism from the Holy Church. There is no >contradiction here,
 
>Is being "basically very pious" enough to compensate for the mortal sin of
>schism? Why not then join Buddha, Mohhamed, Pifagor, Mani, Lao Tse, as well
>as Arius and Nestorius, who _all_ were "very pious", but "sadly not quite
>Orthodox" ?  Is there really no contradiction?
 
I do not think I ever said anything about "joining" someone because someone
is pious. In case of so-called "old believers" there is no heresy involved,
even as they placed themselves in schism from the Church. And, while piety
of course can be misguided, it is still something we wich to aquire, as
are virtues. In that respect, it was noted by all of those (Orthodox)
who studied such far-out sects as Molokans that we heard about recently -
are extremely virtuous and good people - peaceful, devoted, loving and
hard-working. No doubt, we can find these also in other places, and
these are all good things that God grants them _despite_ their being
outside the Church of Christ, and _despite_ their depravity of the Life-
giving Mysteries. Their very existence is a reproach to us, who call
ourselves "christians" and yet so often falling far behind the great
gifts that Lord granted us.
 
>>Another thing to note, is that all anathemas issued against the followers of
>>the "Old Rite" pronounced in 1665 and shortly after are now lifted >by
>>Russian Orthodox Church.
 
>The anathemas were "issued" and later, Glory to God +, justly lifted against
>_using_ the Old Rite, but provided that the usagers are  _within_ One Holy
>Catholic and Apostolic Church.
 
Yes, this is a very important distinction.
 
>Exactly, but with my [corrections]. But we must preserve our Catholic Faith,
>entrusted from the Apostles, by all means, up to that that we _must_ separate
>ourselves from heretics and schismatic, that is, by anathemas.
 
In this particular case we can certainly benefit from much good that they
preserved, and that we, sadly, often did not. It is possible to be mistaken
in a larger picture (i.e. to deny the grace-filled nature of our "nikonian"
sacraments) and to be right in just about anything else.
 
>>Now to the fully bogus part of your posting: "either you belong to the
>>Russian Orthodox - or Holy Catholic Apostolic Church"?
 
>?????? Well, here is _my original_ >fully bogus dichotomy< again:
 
>>For many members of the ROCOR, ROCA and ROC - do we belong
>>either to the Russian Church or to the same Catholic (not Roman)
>>Church as of the Apostles? That is, what is higher for us: the
>>older local Russian tradition or the Cath'olonic Tradition?
 
And how is your statement different from the dichotomy I described?
Maybe it is a language thing, I do not know, does "Russian Orthodox"
mean anything else than "Russian Church"?
 
>As one can see, you sibstitute my "dichotomy" with another, "fully bogus"
>one, ergo answering the wrong question. Yeah, just a one word difference, who
>cares, but the meaning changes completely.
 
Please explain the difference, I do not get it (maybe too much eating
these days!)
 
>....now I can paraphrase myself even simpler:
>"Do we belong either to the Russian national church or to the Orthodox
>Church?"
 
What is "russian _national_ church"? In Church, there is no hellene nor jew,
and the whole existing notion of being 'russian' is formed predominantly around
Orthodoxy and speaking the language. There is a Russian Church, one of several
Local Orthodox Churches, a branch on the great Vine of Christ (no, I am not
advertising Anglican "branch theory", I am only speaking about Orthodox
Churches). I do not know any other Church, so the question of where to belong
is not really existent. It is one an the same thing.
 
I tried to illustrate it by an analogy, but my poor knowledge of English
apparently prevented this. Another try: we are living in a real world, where
we meet real, concrete, people, or animals, buildings, and go to real and
concrete churches. While the totality of there _real and concrete_ people,
animals, buildings and churches is called by these generic forms, these forms
by themsleves do not really exist as some kind of abstractions. IOW, we
love or hate not the "people" in general - but those with whom we interact one
way or another. We see not an ideal "tetrapode animal", for example, but a
real and concrete dog or a horse. We go to real Church, existing, living
Church organism, uniting in it all its living and departed members and having
Christ as its head - but not to some ideal "universal" abstraction of it.
 
This is what I mean when I speak about dichotomy - every Orthodox Church
is a real and existing part, form of the One Church of Christ. Being
"church militant", it stands face to face with the evil of this world in
every minute of our life, and sometimes yields, sometimes wins, sometimes
flees and sometimes sleeps in its many "fronts" of action.
This is the only thing that I really wished to say, I hope we can agree here.
 
>>This probably coming
>>from a peculiar idea that there is some "ideal" "universal" Church out there
>>that is "pure" from all the Local Church traditions,
 
>Yes, I happen to believe in this >pecular idea<, along with our Holy Fathers.
>I believe and I confess that there is  >some ideal universal Church out
>there, pure from all the _human_ local traditions<, which is -  the Mystical
>Body of Christ.
 
And perhaps we are arguing about "half full" or "half empty" glass here,
since I would say to that the Universal Church _consists_ of the local
traditions, that are the big and small roots that feed and strengthen and
support the faith of people. They _are_ pure, many of them blessed by
the Holy people of God who used them, by people's devotion, by belonging
to the Holy Church that is not only found out there in the sky somewhere,
or in our head, a sort of invisible ideal, but real, concrete babushki and
young people and small children who mysteriosly receive the very Body and
Blood of our Lord, and become Holy.
 
>But according to the our Holy Fathers of the IV Ecumenical Council of 451 in
>Chalcedon, this Mystical Nature is "unmergably (asighitos) and inseparably
>(adiairetos)" combined with our weak, fallen, passionate human nature. That
>will include all the local national traditions - not throwing them away as
>"fleshly", but bringing them down to where they belong - in subordinance to
>the Holy Tradition.
 
Yes, not discending, but taking our nature upon the Divine, and lifting it up,
exalting. Changing and sanctifying, as the Holy Spirit did to the impotent
and scattered and frightened pupils of Christ most of whom have just betrayed,
or abandoned their Teacher.
 
>>D.... One Holy
>>Catholic and Apostolic Church _consists_ of Local Churches, real, living and
 
>No, I think, had One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church consisted of just the
>human >Local Churches< with no Divine Part and Head, the gates of Haden would
>have prevailed over Her on the next day after the Pentaconst :-)==.
 
I never said anything about Churches being "just the human". Of course
they are all Holy, like we pray "for the wellbeing of the Holy churches of
God - let us pray to the Lord".
 
>> and _especially_ those who are not separated from us by any heresy, but by
>>a  schism.
 
>Is the mortal sin of schism any better in any >_special_< way than heresy?
 
Yes, schism is certainly better than heresy.
 
>>We do not have too many examples of this.
 
>On the contrary. Just substitute "Niko-" with "Sergio-" and look around to
>see too many examples<.  :-(=::
 
The classic mark of schism is the statement that the part of Church from which
another, "our" part is separated, lacks grace, and its Mysteries are not real
Mysteries. This is the position of schismatic Old Believers, who would
Baptise you or me had we decided to join them.
 
You are hinting on a schism provoked by the Declaration of 1927 of Met.
Sergius, in Russia, when the large majority of ROC Bishops both in USSR and
abroad rejected it. However, this is a canonical matter, much like the current
situation between Constantinople and ROC, or in the ages past between so many
other parts of Church. And indeed any such separation is to be avoided, as
no doubt Bishops know themselves, but there are often times when this is the
only correct response.
 
>P. S. In case if this post looks offensive, please forgive me -
>I am just in that jolly Bright Week mood.
 
Same here,
 
>(don't miss this one now :-):
 
A pleasure to be your "Nemesis" {;0<)]. Boy, what a face....
 
Truly He is risen!
Alexey

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December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3
September 1998, Week 2
September 1998, Week 1
August 1998, Week 5
August 1998, Week 4
August 1998, Week 3
August 1998, Week 2
August 1998, Week 1
July 1998, Week 5
July 1998, Week 4
July 1998, Week 3
July 1998, Week 2
July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 2
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
August 1997, Week 4
August 1997, Week 3
August 1997, Week 2
August 1997, Week 1
July 1997, Week 5
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1
January 1997, Week 5
January 1997, Week 4
January 1997, Week 3
January 1997, Week 2
January 1997, Week 1
December 1996, Week 5
December 1996, Week 4
December 1996, Week 3
December 1996, Week 2
December 1996, Week 1
November 1996, Week 5
November 1996, Week 4
November 1996, Week 3
November 1996, Week 2
November 1996, Week 1
October 1996, Week 5
October 1996, Week 4
October 1996, Week 3
October 1996, Week 2
October 1996, Week 1
September 1996, Week 5
September 1996, Week 4
September 1996, Week 3
September 1996, Week 2
September 1996, Week 1
August 1996, Week 5
August 1996, Week 4
August 1996, Week 3
August 1996, Week 2
August 1996, Week 1
July 1996, Week 5
July 1996, Week 4
July 1996, Week 3
July 1996, Week 2
July 1996, Week 1
June 1996, Week 5
June 1996, Week 4
June 1996, Week 3
June 1996, Week 2
June 1996, Week 1
May 1996, Week 5
May 1996, Week 4
May 1996, Week 3
May 1996, Week 2
May 1996, Week 1
April 1996, Week 5
April 1996, Week 4
April 1996, Week 3
April 1996, Week 2
April 1996, Week 1
March 1996, Week 5
March 1996, Week 4
March 1996, Week 3
March 1996, Week 2
March 1996, Week 1
February 1996, Week 5
February 1996, Week 4
February 1996, Week 3
February 1996, Week 2
February 1996, Week 1
January 1996, Week 5
January 1996, Week 4
January 1996, Week 3
January 1996, Week 2
January 1996, Week 1
December 1995, Week 5
December 1995, Week 4
December 1995, Week 3
December 1995, Week 2
December 1995, Week 1
November 1995, Week 5
November 1995, Week 4
November 1995, Week 3
November 1995, Week 2
November 1995, Week 1
October 1995, Week 5
October 1995, Week 4
October 1995, Week 3
October 1995, Week 2
October 1995, Week 1
September 1995, Week 5
September 1995, Week 4
September 1995, Week 3
September 1995, Week 2
September 1995, Week 1
August 1995, Week 5
August 1995, Week 4
August 1995, Week 3
August 1995, Week 2
August 1995, Week 1
July 1995, Week 5
July 1995, Week 4
July 1995, Week 3
July 1995, Week 2
July 1995, Week 1
June 1995, Week 5
June 1995, Week 4
June 1995, Week 3
June 1995, Week 2
June 1995, Week 1
May 1995, Week 5
May 1995, Week 4
May 1995, Week 3
May 1995, Week 2
May 1995, Week 1
April 1995, Week 5
April 1995, Week 4
April 1995, Week 3
April 1995, Week 2
April 1995, Week 1
March 1995, Week 5
March 1995, Week 4
March 1995, Week 3
March 1995, Week 2
March 1995, Week 1
February 1995, Week 4
February 1995, Week 3
February 1995, Week 2
February 1995, Week 1
January 1995, Week 5
January 1995, Week 4
January 1995, Week 3
January 1995, Week 2
January 1995, Week 1
December 1994, Week 5
December 1994, Week 4
December 1994, Week 3
December 1994, Week 2
December 1994, Week 1
November 1994, Week 5
November 1994, Week 4
November 1994, Week 3
November 1994, Week 2
November 1994, Week 1
October 1994, Week 5
October 1994, Week 4
October 1994, Week 3
October 1994, Week 2
October 1994, Week 1
September 1994, Week 5
September 1994, Week 4
September 1994, Week 3
September 1994, Week 2
September 1994, Week 1
August 1994, Week 5
August 1994, Week 4
August 1994, Week 3
August 1994, Week 2
August 1994, Week 1
July 1994, Week 5
July 1994, Week 4
July 1994, Week 3
July 1994, Week 2
July 1994, Week 1
June 1994, Week 5
June 1994, Week 4
June 1994, Week 3
June 1994, Week 2
June 1994, Week 1
May 1994, Week 5
May 1994, Week 4
May 1994, Week 3
May 1994, Week 2
May 1994, Week 1
April 1994, Week 5
April 1994, Week 4
April 1994, Week 3
April 1994, Week 2
April 1994, Week 1
March 1994, Week 5
March 1994, Week 4
March 1994, Week 3
March 1994, Week 2
March 1994, Week 1
February 1994, Week 4
February 1994, Week 3
February 1994, Week 2
February 1994, Week 1
January 1994, Week 5
January 1994, Week 4
January 1994, Week 3
January 1994
December 1993

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